Author Topic: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference  (Read 557 times)

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Offline Kopfdorfer

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AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« on: August 17, 2018, 01:14:56 PM »
Hey Guys ,

I have built an FNF style mission , and I'd like to offer it up.
I have an angle , right ? Yep.

I always find the accumulation of personal points as counter-immersive.
No combat pilot flies around assessing targets by point value.
Their assessment is always in the context of the current "operational value".
What is the objective of the nation or in a smaller context the battle group.
Individual tallies don't come into the assessment.

Is individual achievement important - certainly.
The more excellent individual achievements by a team , the greater likelihood of operational success.
A good example of my point , without an academic dissertation on the hows and the whys ,
is to note that the top (20 say for argument) individual Luftwaffe fighter aces knocked down many more enemy aircraft
than the top 20 pilots of all other combatant nations in WW2 , yet in the big scheme it doesn't matter ,
because the Allies prevailed.

I also have a problem with tactics that are successful in a game context , but are utterly ridiculous in terms of
simulating an exciting and believable combat environment in IL2.

The FNF example that is strongest in my mind , was a couple of weeks ago.
I was pursuing an enemy aircraft on my side of the line. I started with an initial advantage , but the aircraft being quite equal in
top speed , when the e/a sighted me before I was able to close he just headed away maintaining distance.
He couldn't escape , but I couldn't catch him.
No problem - evasion is an absolutely fundamental tactical concept.
BUT , the e/a headed deeper into my side of the line , away from any potential assistance from either side (I was more likely to get it deep on my side of the fence).
Again , not an unrealistic tactic , leaving the battle area in the hopes that I would have more pressing targets to pursue and break off.
When we were stalemated in terms of distance - I was too far to shoot , but couldn't close ,
I realized I was being gamey tactic-ed , and anticipated what was going to happen , and sure enough , after dragging me quite some distance away from the battle area
undamaged , the pilot baled , aircraft went down  - to respawn right back in the battle area , and me many miles behind the lines.
I flew back to the battle area.
Was the pilot making a good tactical choice - sure , in a game context.
Did it have any real combat tactic element ?
Not a chance once the decision was made to take the enemy - me as far away from a spawn base
as possible , and to waste an aircraft - a vital asset to his side.
And of course , the kicker , he would have spent the duration eating gruel out of a paper sack.

This is another observation. It is far too easy a choice to bail out of a lightly damaged aircraft (anywhere) if you are not carrying points ,
in order to spawn in more quickly. There is no value other than accumulated points in getting an aircraft back to base.
In real shooting war this is the primary objective of every flight crew. Get your ship back so you have it to fight the next fight.

I understand there are different elements that make flying missions enjoyable to different pilots.
We are always making compromises in the hopes that most people will enjoy
most of the missions.

Because I am making a criticism about immersion vs gameyness in terms of the fundamental concept
of FNF, it behooves me to offer an alternative to try , and see if it appeals to enough others to perhaps
draw from the idea for future FNFs.

I have made up this mission which addresses my observations in these ways.

1) At the forward spawn points , there is a finite supply of aircraft.
    It is a generous number , but it is limited. Fear not - both sides have an infinite base of supply slightly farther from the front.
    (I made the distances comparable to the normal FNF transit lengths)
    The costs for squandering your aircraft count , is a slightly longer flight to get back into action , and a slightly limited selection
    of aircraft at the Supply Base.

2) Aircraft supply is represented by stationary aircraft.
    This makes it an important operational consideration whether to defend your bases , as when the aircraft on them are destroyed ,
    they are lost (until replaced by resupply flights).
    It also makes it important where you make those crash landings , and where you park.
    Your aircraft remains where you parked it if you change types.

3) Non-Aircraft targets will defend themselves , so solitary forays against enemy strength have lower chances of success.
    The intent here is to foster a little tighter multi-aircraft group tactics.

4) Individual Point accumulation is turned off. You succeed or fail as a TEAM , according to the Objectives laid out in the brief.

5) Currently there is no value to non-shooting , bomb dropping , rocket firing aircraft except as point accumulating targets
    I recommend we use the Fog of War MDS settings to give greater value to Recon type Aircraft , as they provide map information within
    a given radius of their position.
    As I said , this is optional to the design - though it is recommended.

6) None of my alternative design considerations affect the mission settings you normally choose to use during FNF
    (though I would certainly change some of these if I could convince you to).

Anyhow , I built this mission to address these observations.

Let me know if you are interested in trying it as an alternative.

Kopfdorfer
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 02:31:27 PM by Kopfdorfer »

Offline _AH_z5o

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2018, 01:50:33 PM »
Sounds interesting. Slap some wings on that puppy. Ill fly it. S!
Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.

Offline _AH_Twenty

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2018, 09:01:38 PM »
Sounds interesting. Slap some wings on that puppy. Ill fly it. S!


Me to

Offline _AH_Jack

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2018, 01:50:59 PM »
I'm Gamey.

Offline _AH_fraggmann

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2018, 09:46:40 PM »
mY H3aD hUrTz

Offline _AH_kawilder

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2018, 09:57:39 PM »
I'm in.

~S~

kaw

Online _AH_Bear

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2018, 10:14:09 PM »

Offline Kopfdorfer

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2018, 03:34:00 PM »
My FNF Mission is ready (I think - after a few speedbumps) and I have a package ready to send to Jack
or whoever will host it with the mission files and settings.

I just need Jack's email so I can include the attachment.
(AH forum emails do not appear to allow attachments - perhaps I just can't see the mechanism)

Kopfdorfer

Offline _AH_BBQhead

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2018, 11:41:08 PM »
S~


 You aren't missing it, Kopf. We don't really upload much of anything here. We upload it elsewhere and provide a link.
 Not even sure if the email module is configured. Messaging here is just a direct message, but you can include links in them if you like. Some guys are notified when a message is sent, depending if they've set that up for their account. Others only see it if and when they log in to the site. 

At that awkward age where your brain has gone from " Probably shouldn't say that" to
"What the hell, let's see what happens"?  Me too.

Offline Kopfdorfer

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2018, 01:18:49 PM »
For those of you who liked my attempt to change up FNF a bit , you can have a little input on my next
offering. (Not ready yet - 2 weeks be sure)
I have several concepts in development for a similar - objective based FNF concept.
1) Stalingrad airlift underfire Dec 1942.
2) Alpen 1945 the remains of the Luftwaffe is surrounded in the Alps May 1945.
3) Fictional Murmansk with a 1938 planeset - get to know some birds that you probably don't fly.
4) Royce Force April 1942 Philippines USAAF B25s and B17s fly out of unknown bases in Mindanao to attack
    Japanese shipping.
5) Keep Tobruk supplied 1941 - the Afrika Korps has it surrounded.
6) The Breskens Pocket Fall 1944 First Canadian Army supported by the RAF 2nd Tactical Air Force must
    reduce the German 16th Armee in the Breskens pocket , to open Antwerp harbour to Allied shipping.
7) Fictional 1949 UN Task Force sent to the Arctic to investigate a post war Nazi stronghold.
8) 1941 Channel Kampf - Air War over the Channel Winter 1941 planeset.
9) German withdrawal on the Eastern Front Slovakia 1944
10) Germans crush Warsaw 1939
11) Operation Cerberus - The Nazis attempt to get Scharnhorst , Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen past the Brits in terrible weather.
12) 2nd and 17th SS are trapped in the Roncey Pocket , Normandie July 27 1944

I am also interested in any ideas on how to incorporate Objective Based flying in a Dogfight format ,
or indeed any mission concepts anyone might have.
Also , if there's anyone out there who wants to try and build a mission who hasn't done it , I'd be happy to help.
I am looking for creativity here.
Any idea is welcome , as long as you understand I won't necessarily adopt it.

Kopfdorfer
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 03:38:51 PM by Kopfdorfer »

Offline _AH_BBQhead

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2018, 12:20:42 AM »
S~

 Just an FYI.. I've been trying to come up with ideas, but nothing yet.  It's a tricky riddle trying to come up with a scenario, and how to make it work as a competition. 

At that awkward age where your brain has gone from " Probably shouldn't say that" to
"What the hell, let's see what happens"?  Me too.

Offline _AH_DarkWolf

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2018, 12:56:12 AM »
Yeah BB, I'm not sure how you would get I-153s and Me-262s to work.

DW


"In War: Resolution, In Defeat: Defiance, In Victory: Magnanimity, In Peace: Good Will" - Winston S. Churchill

Online _AH_Hollywood

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2018, 02:55:12 PM »

Quote
Alpen 1945 the remains of the Luftwaffe is surrounded in the Alps May 1945.


we rarely fly anything newer than 1943, this looks like fun
"You sneaky little bastards aren't getting doodly sh*t from me, except maybe my name, rank, and Social Security number: Wood, Hollis P., Lumberjack, Social Security 106-43-2185."-Slim Pickens-The movie-1941

Offline Kopfdorfer

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2018, 08:54:59 PM »
Alpen Redoubt 1945 should be ready for Sunday Night.

Hollywood's vote got me to cinch this idea down.
Blue Team will have a tough night on their hands ,
but they will get to fly in some very interesting aircraft.

Kopfdorfer

Offline Kopfdorfer

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Re: AN FNF to Offer - Though with a difference
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2018, 04:51:46 PM »
FNF-Alpen Redoubt 1945 is Ready for Sunday.
I also have a backup - FNF-General Hunt Slovenia 1941.

Kopfdorfer