BRITISH RADAR

[_AH_*PODS*_RGAA]

British Radar–1939
At the outbreak of war in September 1939, CH had eighteen stations covering the
eastern and half of the southern coast of Britain reporting to one Filter Room. The choice
of HF imposed steep practical limitations on the system. HF, which is a relatively long
wavelength, requires large antenna arrays to radiate sufficient power. Transmission at any
one station required four 360-foot-high masts, 180 feet apart, between which the antenna
wires were strung. The returned signal was not received by the same antenna, but on four
separate 240-foot-high masts. To say the least the whole installation was extremely large.
It could not rotate and did not scan, but floodlit a 100-degree sector with radiation.

Detection of aircraft was possible only within the limits of the 100-degree sector and
depended on the direction finding of the return signal from various antennas. The system
was ineffective over land and was only suitable to a coastal location  

The CH system was the only English radar system in operation at the outbreak of the
war.

The reason I posted this is the argument that british were not able to see any aircraft outside of the 100 digree radius, they were not able to see what kind of aircraft , and size of flights. They were also not able to see aicraft over land and not able to see aircraft unless within a 8 mile radius over water (20 min out). Coupled with the fact that british were out numbered against the germans in the air and not evenly numbered .... I feel the way we have radar set up now for allied is an unfair advantage and not historical correct in anyway. This is my opinion as stated and not trying to cause probs. just trying to put the facts out there is all .S!

[_AH_Moggy]

The reason I posted this is the argument that british were not able to see any aircraft outside of the 100 digree radius, they were not able to see what kind of aircraft , and size of flights. They were also not able to see aicraft over land and not able to see aircraft unless within a 8 mile radius over water (20 min out). Coupled with the fact that british were out numbered against the germans in the air and not evenly numbered .... I feel the way we have radar set up now for allied is an unfair advantage and not historical correct in anyway. This is my opinion as stated and not trying to cause probs. just trying to put the facts out there is all .S!

S! Pods:

You have some valid arguments here.  That said....

While it's true that the Brit radar wasn't omni-directional, they also had a large Observer Corps ("OC") that supplemented the radar reports.  And their Chain-Home stations were able to detect airborne German aircraft forming up over France.

Unfortunately, we can't tweak the enemy external views (i.e., "radar") to restrict it in the game;  it's either "on" or it ain't.  I think that disabling it outright would put the RAF side at a severe disadvantage.  The map's just too big to cover with only 24 planes, and the German side would simply throw all their eggs in one basket each raid, out-numbering the RAF locally and probably succeeding in each mission.

You're right that the free radar, along with the equal #'s of planes, does give the RAF a big edge.  And we've lost quite a few planes because of it.  It's hard to "fool" the British side in this campaign and sneak in raids un-molested.  That said, the historical loss rate during Aug '40 was about 2:1 (German:RAF).  Through the 1st two missions, that's about the exact ratio we saw in the game.  So, that part seems pretty well-balanced.

Now, why didn't we go for the Brit radar stations, to "blind" them, right off the bat?  Actually, at first that was exactly what I'd planned to do.  But, I did a little experimenting and found that it might have been too easy to knock the stations out, by using gobs of single-flight AI bombers, all hitting the stations at the same time.  So, I decided not to do it.  Looking back, that was a mistake.  We should've knocked them out in the 1st mission, then had one "free" mission (the 2nd) where they'd have been "blinded."  Chances are their radar would've been back online after only that 2nd one.

Not saying you're wrong here, bud.  Actually, I think it might have to do with faulty mission planning on my part.  Remember that we did pretty well in mission # 2 (uh, the one you planned).  Maybe there's some sort of correlation there...

 

[_AH_taldrg]

~S~ quote <within a 8 mile radius over water (20 min out).> Does this mean it took 20 min. to go 8 miles?

[_AH_Archie]

Could you just use the F6 button but put the range out to 30 K.  That way you could get the number of aircraft and direction but nothing else?


I may be all wet on this one

Arch

[_AH_BBQhead]

S~,  Here's what i've been able to find out with a quick scan of some history learning websites. I have no idea what the real specifications were. But from these sources, i think the way we're using it is about as close to historic as the game will allow.


The Chain Home stations were relatively simple to construct and comprehensive coverage was available by the start of the Battle of Britain. In spite of the simplicity of the Chain Home technology, the system had a surprising level of functionality. It could determine distance and direction of incoming aircraft formations, giving rise to its initial name of RDF (Radio Direction Finding), later rechristened 'radar' by the Americans. Most stations were also able to measure the elevation of the formation, which knowing the range gave the height. Local geography prevented some stations from measuring elevation. Although not originally a design goal, the operators became very adept at estimating the size of detected formations from the shape of the displayed returns.

The Chain Home stations were designed to operate at 20-50 MHz, the "boundary area" between high frequency and VHF bands at 30 MHz, although typical operations were at 20-30 MHz (the upper end of the HF band), or about a 12 metre wavelength.[6] The availability of multiple operating frequencies gave some protection from jamming. The detection range was typically 120 miles (192 km), but could be better


Usually the first indications of incoming air raids were received by the Chain Home Radio Direction Finding (RDF, the original RAF name for radar) facilities which were located around the coastlines of the UK. In most circumstances, RDF could pick up formations of Luftwaffe aircraft as they organised themselves over their own airfields.


The information provided to Fighter Command was vital. Chain Home could detect Luftwaffe squadrons as they gathered over the coast of Northern France. Chain Home Low could detect aircraft flying low enough to avoid detection by Chain Home. With such information, Fighter Command usually had about 20 minutes to put fighter squadrons in the air. Timing was vital as both Hurricane and Spitfire pilots preferred to attack from on high as height gave them the advantage over the enemy. A Spitfire needed 13 minutes to scramble and then get to its preferred flying height of 20,000 feet. A Hurricane needed slightly longer – 16 minutes. Therefore the 20 minutes given to them by Chain Home usually allowed Fighter Command to get into a more advantageous position.

[_AH_Twisted]

To use radar ... or... not to use radar..

That is the question!  :help-sos-sos-29402:  :lol-053:

hahaha.

~S~
Twist

[_AH_*PODS*_RGAA]

_{Not saying you're wrong here, bud.  Actually, I think it might have to do with faulty mission planning on my part.  Remember that we did pretty well in mission # 2 (uh, the one you planned).  Maybe there's some sort of correlation there...}

S! Moggy .. I really don't believe that to be the case. I believe any time we have more than a couple bombers NOT surrounded by a gaggle of fighters this will happen. Can sneak a couple 110's in (fast fliers) but believe trying to sneak some 111's or 88's in will be next to impossible as longs as our every move is known. Also as far as the radar BBQ is talking about came in to play later in the war. There are a couple dif types. But the one that Britian had at the start of it all was the HF not UHF (RDF) that was non directional and was more like a radiation mass that worked over water(not land) with an 8 mile radius within 100 digree that couldnt detect size and types of formations ...The RDF .. came in later.

But after saying that ... Do understand the limitations in the game ... but there has got to be a more happier medium than what is current now. With radar ... germans are at a huge disadvantage .. with out the radar the Brits are! Where is the happy medium?

[_AH_BBQhead]

S~. like i mentioned, i don't know, i just read a few websites,, but 8 miles is about visual range..  and at say at 120 miles per hour or so ( which sounds slow to me)  that would only give about 4 minutes till they were overhead.  So i don't think that spec is accurate.. maybe that was the air to air.

And with a 100 degree vector, imagine a 45 degree angle out from each side of the station beaming across the channel..  multiple stations projecting an ever widening beam .. the beams would eventually meet.  

From encyclopedia Britannica: 
In early February 1935, while heading the radio department of the National Physical Laboratory, he wrote a memorandum to the British government in which he explained how radio waves could be used to detect aircraft. He quickly followed with an experimental demonstration. By July 1935 Watson-Watt was able to locate aircraft consistently at a distance of about 140 km (90 miles).

[_AH_Gonzo]

Erm, sorry to interject and through my oar in, but you're allcorrect! As far as I know and have been able to find out:

Chain Home stations were long rang but inaccurate. To make up for this the Brits built lots of them (Imagine 18 of these relatively close together) with an overlap at the longer ranges where they were effective. This gave them the ability to see into northern France (But not along the English coast) as the formations joined up with their escort fighters.



Chain Home Low stations were also used but their cover was marginal (Approx. 8NM offshore and lower than 5,000') but they could detect low flying aircraft as they approached the coast.

Once German aircraft were closer to the English coast or overland the RAF had watch stations that could count and identify aircraft formations visually and using sound detection (We still have one such station in Malta) these stations would report what they were seeing and RAF fighters already in the air would then be vectored to where they were needed. The system wasn't fool proof but it was very effective.

If the ground observation units (Spotters and listening stations) data confirmed the number of aircraft that had previously been reported by the Chain Home stations then this was an indication that the entire formation was going after a single target. If it didn't correlate, then the initially sighted formation Chain Home was a feint and more than a single target could expect to be hit. Once these smaller formations crossed the coast, the "Spoters" and "Listeners" could pick them up. While they couldn't predict for certain what the target would be, they could at least give an indication of altitude and heading.

So effective were the listening stations, that they could usually pick out the aircraft type and formation size from a very long distance out. In fact, German bomber pilots would un-synchronize their engines (Run engines at differing RPMs) in order to sound like more aircraft and throw of the listening stations counts. This is where the ground visual spotters came in to play.

Now, how we could work things out for a more even playing field for our use in IL2 is a hell of a lot harder to answer.

My 2 cents would be to burn all the AI's but with me that's sort of a given. I had a Hurricane last night absorb over 200 cannon and machine gun rounds (Verified via user STAT) from varying range and do nothing but smoke. And just a little at that. While it did go down shortly after, 200 rounds is a bit ridiculous even for AI.

Considering the limitations of the game, keeping everyone happy and on an even playing field is probably going to be harder than shooting down or evading and AI.

Any change for my 2 cents?

[DealnDave]

Here's a bit more on the radar and how it was used:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/controlsys.html

[_AH_DarkWolf]

Yeah, the term R.D.F. (Radio Direction-Finding) was the basic term for radar at the time. I've been reading a book by Churchill, this is what it says. By the end of 1937 they could track a/c at a range of 35 miles up to 10,000 feet. Goes on to say by 1939 they had constructed the coastal chain using "comparitively long-wave radio (ten metres)" that allowed detection of approaching a/c over the sea at up to 60 miles. I.F.F. equipment had at this point been devised that allowed the coastal chain radar stations to distinguish british a/c that carried it from enemy a/c. It was found that the long-wave stations could not detect a/c approaching low over the sea, so another set of stations called C.H.L. (Chain Stations Home Service Low Cover) was built using much shorter waves (one and a half metres) but these were only effective over a shorter range. So they had this level of capability about a year before the BoB.

Moggy makes a good point about the observer corps too, which was the main way of keeping track of german formations once they were over england. All the radar stations and observer corps units could communicate by telephone to the HQ in Uxbridge where everything was coordinated.

DW

[_AH_Toccs]

Moggy, dont beat urself up over that mission. It was a hell of a good fight, you made a good call to abort mission and go defensive.   

[_AH_Rezak]

~S~ to ALL
Do not forget that in late 1939 Polish criptologysts delivered from Poland (germans did  not know that Polish matematitions broke Enigma code) some Enigma "typewriters" and british were able to read communications orders. Some historians say that knowing Enigma help more than radar system.
Before delivering those "typewriters" british were only able to read and understand headlines from german's newspapers.